Intimate Goals From Proverbs 31 Part 2

I'm reviewing this this morning and ready to jot it down. For the first segment of this go here. Before I start I'm curious about something...

Someone mentioned in the last comments that most people read blogs in a google reader now days which does not give a place to post comment. Is that so? Are there readers of SFE who only read in a reader provider? I did not know this since I read blogs at the blog because I love the diversity of the blogs themselves and the pictures they share on their blog. I think I've ranted on this before that readers are like sterile hospital rooms where blogs are warm and inviting like a person's living room. But if you do read in a reader I want to make it easier for readers to share back because really, that is what keeps me bothering here so I would like to provide a link at the end of posts.

Proverbs Goals from Vs. 14:

(vs. 13 is great too, it's about choosing quality fabrics and making clothing but I'm just not there and God and I both know it:)

She is like merchant ships;

She brings her food from afar.

I've jokingly called this my Costco verse before. Just because Costco is far from my house and I always felt like I was "bringing my food from afar" when I went there. Actually, lately the Lord has been convicting me to stay away from Costco because I seem to spend MORE there. But this verse does require me to take time to do homework and be educated on what our family consumes and uses to know the best quality for the best price. To know what a good deal on a certain item is. Even to go to the lengths physically and mentally to get the best for the best price. To consider all factors in travel, time and value and make a wise decision to result again in what will add and not what will take away. This week that meant I researched the sales more and made more little stops rather than heading down to Costco. This is a constantly changing homework project and one thing I need to do more is beef up on my coupons and Money Saving Mom visits. I've been convicted about taking that time again because It's worth it for things we need.

Vs. 15

She rises also while it is still night

And gives food to her household

And portions to her maidens.

I admit it, this is my LEAST FAVORITE VERSE IN PROVERBS 31!!!!

I am not a morning person. Yet, it means I need to make sure I get up early enough to allow my husband and family to start the day the best way they can. Someone recently joked with me that homeschooling was so great because they could sleep in and start when they wanted if they had a long night. This was one of the things about homeschooling that made our lives worse. I am not good at getting up and unless that structure is put on me, I won't do it. So, though I needed to be up helping my husband get ready for his day, making him breakfast and lunch, I used homeschooling freedom as a reason not to help him out. For me, the schedule and demand to be up has been so good for our family. It has also taught our kids that the world runs on a structure of time and you have to be disciplined. Some mom's I know are great at making this happen inside the homeschooling scene, but not me. Even now, I have to be more and more diligent to make sure there is also enough time to send everyone off prepared for the day they will have and not just having food thrown at them as they go out the door. AND, enough time for me to wake up before them to be able to do this JOYFULLY! It requires getting to bed at a good time the night before and for me, who loves to stay up late, that is hard.

This verse practically reminds me of the noble importance of having the job to feed a household in the morning. To help them in that way is no small thing. It is a high calling. I have the privilege of setting the tone for four peoples day! Well, actually five, because it makes a difference in my day too.

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An Intimate Search For Goals From Prov. 31

If you are like me, you may sometimes dread reading that passage. Especially when I was very young and had toddlers and babies around me I would just beat myself up that I did not achieve high enough. In fact, there should be a just for fun version of Prov. 31 for the new mom. That would be entertaining and the theme would be "grace in the midst of continuous survival mode".
Yet I found myself this week anxious to get to Prov. 31 even though it was not up on the calendar Proverb of the day yet. I wanted to take an intimate look at it and filter out what were some real sensible practical goals, not for perfection sake, but for the blessing it would bring for my life and that of my husband and family.
Through the years I think we all as Christian mom's define in our minds what a Godly woman looks like. Twice in my married life I have gone all out in skirts and dresses thinking that this made me a more Godly woman. The funny thing to me was that both times, and especially the last time about two years ago, my husband said he wished I would wear pants! I was in such a state of pride at the time that, though I did not tell him this, I responded in my heart that he was just not spiritual enough and did not appreciate true femininity. Oh, the Lord convicted me on that one, and I put my pants back on. (of course I wear dresses too but he does not like me wearing them every day and for those reasons). Later on, I found it quite cute that he liked me in pants and enjoyed the freedom of that. I tend to be an all or nothing person so I have to be very careful of legalistic patterns creeping up in my life. The homeschooling thing started to become this in me too and as some of you know from reading here for a while...God worked on me in that one too. Oh, I'm so relieved he does not let me go my own way! I'm so thankful he does not let me find salvation in ANYTHING else but Him.
Oh, yes, so....
I am only going to touch on the first three points today because I don't want to wear anyone out. I will come back and complete this walk though as the week goes on I hope (I'm battling a bad cold right now so who knows but I may be nursing sick kids soon).
One my notebook, I wrote at the top :
Practicality of Proverbs 31
(kind of a "how does this apply to me?" or "what would this look like for me?")

One huge thing to note first whenever approaching Proverbs 31 is to remember that it is in fact a poem of sorts written in the Hebrew to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. So, it would be like you taking the ABC's and coming up with a set of goals for what a woman aught to be. Or you could call it a prayer. It is infact however an ideal scenario and should be taken as a target to shoot for in the grace and power of Christ and not my willpower or pride.
It is also set in (as John MacArthur in his study guides points out) a "wealthy home and the customs of the ancient Near East" but the ideas still apply to all.

Vs. 11-12: "The heart of her husband trusts in her,

and he will have no lack of gain.

She does him good and not evil all the days of her life. "

= He can trust me to use our resources wisely and responsibly. I show him my loyalty through doing this. My decisions on these resources add to our family rather than take from them.

This one is very convicting to me for when I make spontaneous decisions with money when I 'm out and about. I recently told Rick that the girls were both going to need new tennis shoes and asked if we could set some money aside for them in the next paycheck. I did not really think about it except that I knew if I did not say anything, at the place where we are now, there would be no money. The amazing thing though, and the thing the Lord brought to me later, was that he thanked me for letting him know ahead of time and told me that it was very helpful for me to do that for him. Huh.. so simple.

The other aspect of this, and I think this one is all I'm going to get to today because of the time, is that my resources are not only the money he gives me to use. They are also the time in my day, the decisions I make with it, the care of the stuff we all ready have (i.e. clothes, food, furniture etc.), and guarding as well as maintaining my own energy level. That alone goes into many other categories of decision making like what I choose to eat, whether I use all that we have or waste it, whether I get enough sleep to have energy, how much time I spend on the computer etc.

And on that awesome send off note, that's it for today. More hopefully tomorrow.

(PS: Please feel free to comment, the blog has been so quiet lately. I hope my mixing things up so much has not left ya all silent. I do love to know that you're here and any feed back you have on the writings, thanks!)

Few Things So Lovely

Do you ever walk out on a cool evening just to catch a breathtaking sunset? Do you ever go and stand by the roar of the ocean and feel your soul just stretching out over the water to touch somehow the beauty your eyes take in? Do you ever look at a new life and just drink in the awe of brand new creation? All these things are glimpses of the glory of God and they make our souls absolutely soar with delight in something way bigger than we are. We were created to long for beauty beyond ourselves, the beauty of the glory of God. More in a minute.
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I love the second chapter of Acts. I love the amazing timing of God to bring the Holy Spirit at a time when so many men and women from so many nations would be gathered in one place to come to the knowledge of the gospel of God himself. I love that the fact that the Holy Spirit allowed the apostles to speak in all the languages that were represented there despite the fact that they had never heard perhaps a word of it themselves, let alone been trained in speaking it.
I love that it encourages me when I want to share the gospel with someone and just feel like I just don't "speak their language" seeing that we are so different perhaps, that the Spirit is given me just as it was to the Apostles and I don't have to worry about the details that God can handle.

I love that it reviews the fulfilled prophecy about the coming of the Spirit as well as the resurrection of Christ. It declares forth the validity of them both...rock solid.

I love that it includes the second most important event in church history (the first being the coming of the Spirit) being Peter's sermon which leads to the 3,000 converts all from those many many places ready now to go back, in perfect timing, to their own lands to declare and start the spread of the good news of salvation from sin.

Still, my favorite part comes at the very end. Just as any other thing right from the hand of God without the help of man, this picture is a lovely display of the power of the Spirit to accomplish the glory of God:
"Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and ppossessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved."

Does that not make your heart soar!? Just like the other "awe" inspiring things I mentioned above. These people were experiencing a glimpse of eternity. They were filled with joy and selflessness toward each other even to the point that they felt they had all things in common. Now, as with any group of humanity, they of course did not have ALL things in common, yet they had all that really mattered in this life in common, and temporal things in ownership to Christ and therefore held it to each other with open hand. Wow, the unity of that, and what a different picture than the world around us going for what each man can get for himself and the building up of his own importance and confidence.
They were sharing the joy of food together in a wonderful fellowship. Not hording their own food for their own families (as they actually had very little and could have been perhaps justified to do so in the sense of it being more "smart" perhaps) but making sure all were provided for and met in their needs.
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It's obvious that in our world, every man longs for peace. He longs for the world to become a better place and for us all to just work together for the greater good. Though this desire is misguided through the fall and sin has twisted it into goal for blowing up our own vanities and the vanity of mankind itself (therefore positively effecting us as well), it comes from a desire given to us by God. Yet, our peace is found in LETTING GO of everything that would build us up and giving it in open hand to where God would use it for His purposes. It was such a beautiful picture of everything humanity is NOT on his own, that it drew in more and more unbelieving people. They were in awe of this unity.
I wonder if the church today is as beautiful to those who look upon us. It should be. It should be amazing what Christians do for others because of the love they have for Christ. They should feel that we would just as earnestly give what we had for a need they had as well. It is undeniable beauty and not something that we could just conjure up. Just like the sunset or the waves of the sea, it is awesome and God revealing. It makes us long to be a part of it because it is bigger than the self-seeking beings that we are.

Take a Little Scripture, Put It In Your Pocket...Save It For a Rainy Day

There is certainly nothing wrong with that. The right verse at the right time has been a great encouragement to many. But I've been pondering the problem with a pattern of feeding on the word this way. It's like spiritually starving yourself on a few peanuts you carry around in your pocket. After a while your malnourishment catches up with you.

I also apply this analogy to when scripture is "carried" around and quoted for use by the person needing that one biblical quote that makes valid their point in conversation. It can just be thrown out there as emphasis but rarely is it studied for context or meaning. Many times I have been swayed into an idea by someone I respected doing this to me. I did not know the word enough myself to discern their proper usage of it.

As I'm in this new and different mode in my life right now that I spoke of before, I feel the need to purge my impressions and influences down to (1) what God's word itself says and (2) who God wants me as the individual he made, to be. Therefore I'm growing weary and shockingly considering ridding myself of books related to conduct rather than concept study.

For instance, I have long been a fan of Elizabeth George books ("A Woman after God's own Heart" books). Many of the things she has to say are good but they are all on the definitions of conduct for a godly woman. I use to go more to these to find out what I was supposed to be. They have some great example to offer but they really are just another version of looking to others to see what defines a godly woman instead of intimately seeking the Lord through study of His word, for Him to show me the conduct of THIS godly woman (or aspiring one anyway:). I remember one example in particular where Elizabeth George mentions that a woman ought to keep the house so well, and wipe the surfaces of everything before heading out the door each time in order for herself and her family to always come home to a clean house. It sounded great and godly at the time, but really? Is that really what defines godliness? Or is it just the expressed preference of one christian lady writer and a reflection of her own personality. Is the woman who is not so tidy not as godly of a woman and not a "woman after God's own heart?". Hmmm.

Please don't think I'm nitpicking...there are many good things to be gleaned out there in the world of Christian women's books. I'm just feeling the need to get right to the source more. I have found that my understanding is not as great when a women's book tells me "now turn to this scripture here, and that one there" after trying to back up a concept on womanly conduct that she has presented. THIS IS NOT BAD, and I'm not saying it is. I'm looking for better. I'm looking for 100% pure, with no flavors added.

So, I have greatly enjoyed the inductive study method through the tools of Kay Arthur's Precept Study Guides. (You can find out more about this at the Precept Ministries Site) These along and many times buddied up with the wonderful teaching of our Pastor, who goes through large sections, usually books, of scripture at a time, have changed my understanding and comprehension of scripture so much more. For instance my Pastor is in the book of Acts right now so I am using the Precept Study Guide for Acts. God is always faithful to fine tune my understanding of the conduct of my life every time I go straight to his word. It's just starting to feel like getting to the point instead of beating around the bush and having to filter out how one person prefers to do certain things and label them "godly" or "ungodly".

What I do appreciate in Christian writing more and more are books that are conceptual. Those concepts or topics on understanding aspects of scripture or God himself. John Piper, Jerry Bridges, Randy Alcorn, and John MacArthur are just some of the tip top favorite examples. These men have been pouring themselves over God's word in the inductive study methods for sure, for many years. God has opened their hearts with passions for different topics and enlightened their understanding and desire to share. Those are the books I feel I'm not wasting my time on.

So the bottom line is that as I'm asking myself "Lord, who do you want me to be?" it is only one of many questions my heart asks. The others are "Lord, who are you?" or "Lord what does it mean to suffer in life when we know you? or "Lord, what exactly is your plan for humanity?"...and many others. The first question I'm finding is better answered going right to God's word and letting him intimately show me. Who he wants me to be cannot be found in the hundreds of women's books on what a woman should be. Yes, I could read them all and I could probably put together a picture that's true but that would be after I spent hours sifting out what was NOT me and what was or what was scripture and what was preference or personality. Scripture is living and breathing and equip for all teaching and conduct. Why not go right to the source?

Scripture is more than a verse in my pocket when I need it or more than a tool for one person to validate their way of doing things. It is an intimate understanding and connection to God who desires to show us personally where and how and why we should walk. To do that I need to learn in a conceptional and inductive way. Once I've done that, then I can carry that verse in my pocket knowing from whence it came and what it means in context to the whole. It's the bigger picture that will gain my understanding, convict my heart, and light the path for my next step ahead.

It's quite a relief that God all ready knows who I'm supposed to be in him and just waiting for me to come to Him so that he may show me. I don't have to try on a bunch of other personalities for size only to find them uncomfortable and stifling.

A Burden To Support Christian Public School Moms

I'm sitting here getting ready to blog this and just awestruck to be here. The person I was a year ago would not only gasp at the change, she would have legalistically condemned it. I just can't believe the journey God has me on. It went from hating the public schools and absolutely sure it was not an option (or further more, a great evil) to sending my kids, to being involved there, and now to a burden I'm developing for christian mom's out there in the schools as well.

This burden is growing as I've slowly been reading vibes out there in the christian world on the subject of school. In researching I have found shocking opinions from christian people on public school. This one down right disturbed me. One man said to the Pitchard Family who wrote the book "Going Public: Your Child Can Thrive In Public School":

"You will lead millions straight to hell by encouraging them to go to government schools!"

Wow, I never knew there was such hostility out there toward our fellow believers. Since when did God get so small that He is unable to sanctify our children when they are in the public arena? Is He only in charge when we are keeping them at home? Does this mean that homeschool sends every child to heaven? Let's think about what were are saying here people. We are in the world and Jesus does not want us to be removed from it:

John 17:15

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Of course the world is evil! What do we expect?

1 John 5:19

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

1 John 4:3-5

But when someone doesn't say this about Jesus, you know that person has a spirit that doesn't come from God and is the enemy of Christ. You knew that this enemy was coming into the world and now is already here.
4Children, you belong to God, and you have defeated these enemies. God's Spirit is in you and is more powerful than the one that is in the world. 5These enemies belong to this world, and the world listens to them, because they speak its language.

We have a victor, and we do not need to fear or hide!

1 John 5:4-5

whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 16:33

These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This thinking of always hiding away is a slippery slope when we carry it all the way through. Should we all just congregate and live together not exposing ourselves at all to the world? No? Just the the kids because they are the vulnerable ones right? Well, the fact is, we are all vulnerable and we all need to be strengthened in God's truth and learn to stand up for His gospel. Whether we are 5 or 95. Otherwise we will start looking more like a cult than Gospel. Good news is not meant to be kept to ones self. Otherwise it is news to no one.

If you are so called, you children, my children, can learn these truths as they grow up in the world just as thoroughly (if not more so) than if we shelter them from it for 18 years. Further more, if God calls you to keep them at home, he has a special purpose for doing that as well. What I have a problem with is Christians saying there is one formula to godliness in the area of schooling. God certainly puts limits on us, we are NOT to put limits on Him.

Many of us need to ask if we are answering God's call or just following a "look good" christian movement. More than anything we need to be saturated with the fact that God is bigger than the world and He will use everything for His glory in our children if they are called. We need to ask ourselves if we are putting our faith in a formula, or our faith in Him. Our faith is small when we put limits on God. Our faith is big the bigger we see God. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Therefore homeschooling without faith, is not pleasing to God.

The fact is, I don't want to start a movement away from anything, including homeschooling. I want to start a movement toward something. God's will for women and their families. I don't understand, the more I read, why people think they are on different sides of the fence when they are all in the body of Christ. I don't' know why I thought that. I hope to save others from my dogmatic thinking. I hope to encourage a spirit of unity and help quiet the "mommy wars" on this subject. I don't even really understand why I've been given this burden but it's there let me tell ya. A woman should never have to feel condemned for not homeschooling, or even having to work for that matter, but that's another topic for another blog. If homeschool women are so legalistic in their writings that women in the schools are beginning to feel that way, then something is wrong. The encouraging of one another is not taking place. We have taken our eyes off Christ and put them on ourselves. Yes, even in the homeschool world personified by great "godliness" is taking it's eyes of Christ when it does this. I am not immune to it either let me tell you. Even when God called us to the public school I felt for a while so convinced that this was really the mission, I started to feel that my homeschool friends should join me. The Lord right away corrected this thinking and has set me on a path to pursuing encouragement for women in their intimate relationship with God and the individuals He created them to be. I am very much an all or nothing person. God does not work that way with people because as the orchestrator he has designed each for it's unique purpose and with it's own gifts. To say that everyone should do what I do is looking at one person...ME.

I do think there may be women out there who are not doing well with the homeschooling but feel there is no other option because public school would be wrong. After all, that is what has been preached to them out loud, and in a much more powerful undertone. Those are the women I want to talk to here. I was one of those women. Perhaps they feel like failures and their children are miserable. Perhaps they jump from one method to another only to find themselves still overwhelmed with no energy for the children outside of getting school done, and no energy for their husbands at the end of the day. Perhaps they play the TV all afternoon to get a break. Perhaps they dread the coming of the new day because of how hard it is. Yet, they think they are just not spiritual enough and need to try harder. They need to be more unselfish. Perhaps God wants them in the public schools, but when they think of it they think that's selfish of them, or that there is no way that can be because the public school is not godly. Surely, homeschooling is the godly choice, no matter how miserable they all were. That woman was me.

Or, perhaps there are women out there who are in the public school and they wear a burden of guilt because of the persona that real godly women homeschool. Since they don't, they feel insecure and they consider themselves bad mom's.

When will we stop measuring ourselves and let God be God?

When will we stop saying there are things we would never consider an option and seek God in prayer for his will every step of the way?

When will we stop looking to formulas and look to God?

When will we stop acting like we are on different sides of a river when we are all actually in same the river flowing up to the glory of God and His purposes.

Why do we feel that if God wants something for us, he must want it for everyone?

This is the boldest statement I've made thus far on this journey but it's burden the Lord has given me. Before I say it, I want to remind the readers that I am certain that God calls women to homeschool. That is absolutely certain and they are in God's will when they have sought Him and obeyed.

Still:

I believe the enemy is thrilled that all the Christians have left the public schools.

I never saw this before till now. He must be elated we have all left to huddle in our own masses. We are no longer a threat to his moving and working among all those children and families who don't know Christ. Legalism is not of God and therefore a tool of the enemy to direct us away from His will. He will use even this to take our eyes off God and to make us ineffective in the world.

So, this message is for one type of mom. The mom who's husband and she are restless in homeschooling and wondering what to do. Pray, and ask God if you might be called to be a bold and brave mom in the public school.

Also, for the mom who has been called there. Do not be discouraged. Seek out MORE ways to be involved. To be Christ to those kids and teachers and parents.

I want to thank my personal friends (all of whom homeschool) who have been so gracious to me in this change the Lord has led me on. A year ago, I don't know if I could have been as gracious as you have been if you told me you were moving into public school. God has humbled me greatly through your testimony to me. After seeing how much is out there that is pridefully condemning, I am blessed so much by the sisters around me! I pray God continues to work out his unique purposes in each of your families.

To those who I know, and who have commented that they have children still not ready for school, I found your statements wise. You are absolutely right to wait upon the Lord and seek Him when the time comes. In fact, you should continue that for the next near 18 years of each child's life. To say now that you don't know what you'll do is the best place to be. I use to say a lot that I will do this, and I will do it forever. Oh, God humors me. :) I have learned to say only one thing:

I will do what God wants, when He let's me know to do it. More than anything, I will remember always how big he is and how great my tendency is to put human limits on Him. God is big, I am small....and that's just the way I like it!

I am going to create today a section on the sidebar for links for women in the public schools. It will be blogs of mom's who are out there and have a heart for the glory of God as well. There will be a link for the Pitchard family as well, and information about their book.

I will also be starting a new element here on the blog. I'm calling it "Seek the Lord in Schooling Saturday". Saturday will be a day I may share updates, and prayer concerns. I encourage readers to post comment if you have any specific praises or prayer concerns for your school week. Homeschool, Christian school, Public School....each and every one.

Thank you to you mom's who have agreed to be links on the new blog list, and welcome!

I Want To Hear From You About Schooling

This next week will be full. My kids will all be in school full days. Kindergarten started full days on this past Thursday. I was so much more focused on what I needed to do instead of looking at the clock so much to see when 11:20 would come around. Superkid is enjoying the more relaxed afternoon especially because the morning is all packed academics. When I was there yesterday, I saw there were no times of playing cars, or playhouse. It was teaching, worksheets, and phonics till lunch with only a recess in there. Now, he will have more fun after lunch as they play more, do art, and have story times.
At home I will be working into my solid routine more. I've broken down what to do on what days to keep myself focused and not let the hours slip by. I will begin my exercise time too. If the weather cools down, I will be baking more to help with our food budget.

On the blog I will be focusing on some things the Lord is laying on my heart.
I have been given a burden to reach out and find, and encourage mom's looking at public school. I have been amazed at the lack of christian support out there on the Internet. Further more, there is some direct insult and condemnation for it. I don't know what kind of beckon this blog can be, but I'm going to start. I have been on the search for some christian mom bloggers and am just beginning to find some. I don't have a lot of time for blog reading so I'm letting myself check out two blogs a day in my blog reading time. I found a great website from a couple with 8 children who have written a book about public school.

I have chatted with the christian couple at my own kids school (the husband use to be my teacher and is now the 3rd grade teacher, and she is now Superkid's kindergarten teacher) who raised three children in the public school and they are great Christan adults now teaching themselves, married to godly spouces.
I hope to start a support place of conversation and prayer for one another. To talk honestly about fears, how it's going well, how it's scary and more than anything how we can stay strong and on top of the issues, and glorify God in our families. I know these women are in a sense on the front lines and the threats are real and in our faces. We need to be encouraged. If God has called you to the front lines, I hope you can find encouragement here. If you homeschool, I hope you can find the same. Each has it's own challenges and my heart is tender to both because I have been there on both ends. God will call us all to different avenues for different purposes, we can all support God's path for each of us. Still, I find the support lacking for those of us called into the public arena and if I can, I hope to beef it up.

I'd like to start out the week hearing from you.
How were you schooled?
What was great about you schooling?
What was difficult about it?
If you have done different areas of schooling, you can answer for each.
If you would like to share further:

How did God use your schooling for his glory?

Just share in any way really, I really want to hear from everyone, even if you don't usually comment or have never commented here before. I could use a poll system but then you would not have the freedom to add details to your answers.

If you don't know how to post comment you can send your answer to me at happyhomebody@gmail.com and I can post it for you.

I will give a few days over the weekend for sharing. I hope to start diving into this subject on Monday.

(I did hear one mom share about an awful experience of an autistic child being locked up during school. This angered me intensely. My own brother has cerebral palsy and had the same experience in young grade school in the 70's. There is no excuse for that method of managing children and I would be out of that school in one way or another faster than anything. Any school doing that should be brought to account. Yet, those considering public school should not let a monster form in their heads from these bad stories as I did. They only fed my already acutely developed fear of letting go of my children in any area. It would be just as wrong as letting homeschooling horror stories dissuade you if the Lord is leading you to homeschool.)

Don't be shy to share....you're thoughts are very welcome!:)

Part IV: "Lord, What Do You Want ME To Learn From This?"

(This is Part IV of my thoughs from women being pastors, elders and apostles)

Something comes accross the threshold of your life. Maybe it's simple, maybe its hard. Maybe it makes you look good, maybe it makes you look bad. Maybe you get worked up, maybe you don't. One thing I have learned to do in the midst of good and bad things, is to ask God one question: "Lord, what do you want me to learn from this?" For truly, every good and perfect gift comes from above, and every thing in life can just pass us by, or it can become a blessing when we seek what were we need to grow.
I am very much an all or nothing person. This is, as many things, a strength and a weakness. Praise God that in our weakness He is strong. So, if I can be used for Him to shine where I stink, so be it.
The Lord has been showing me that I am in great weakness in the area of "how". I've only proven that weakness recently when I let my passion for something get in the way of my wisdom of "how" to go about expressing my convictions. Fortunately the person I wronged was gracious to forgive and had their own experience of weakness that allowed an outpouring of grace from us both. We are all so prone to falling off the slippery slope of pride. I am someone to say what I think and some are prone to just think things that would be just as harsh as what I go ahead and say. I wish I had the other problem only but the fact is, God sees into us all. He is so good to not let our issues stay hidden. He brings them out into the light to humble us and show us his way.

Search me, O God, and know my heart;

Try me and know my anxious thoughts;

And see if there be any hurtful way in me,

And lead me in the everlasting way.

Psalm 139:13-14

What a blessing to be led in the way everlasting. What a privilage, and yet, what a discipline from the Lord. And as he so rightly says, no discipline is plesant at the time. Hebrews 12:11 Yet, oh, to be lead to the everlasting! Is it worth it? Yes, and it is the giving of our very life.

In the study of elders and deacons, I discovered something about men that I had not noticed before. In this study I found it very encouraging that there were two type of men. Authoritative leaders and Servant leaders. I had never seen that before. It says that they should be appointed according to their gifts. I had always seen this as "leaders" period. It was freeing because I realized that my husband has the gift of servant leading. He has an amazng servant's heart. In essence, he would fall under the deacon category if he were to take a role in the church.

It also goes on to say that the women are to help their husbands according to their gifts. God is very intimately aware of our gifts here, isn't that so cool?! He knows our ends and outs and wants us to come to Him as to how to use them for His glory. I realized that I have not focused on asking God this before. What gifts did you give me that are to help my husband lead this family.

This is where this is glorious. Instead of being frustrated that he can't come up with something creative to lead the children in according to their training in the word. I can realize that I AM creative and can prepare it for him. Instead of being frustrated that he does not notice things the kids are doing and therefore doesn't deal with it, I can use the gift I have of noticing and seek a way to respectfully make him aware so that he can lead them. I want to start praying about this and find out what God has been waiting to show me while I've been waisting time in the land of discontent.

Prayer to recognize gifts is perhaps the gateway to harmony in relationships. I'm finding this more and more true in all areas of life with people. After we figure out the lines God has drawn as to what he designed women to do, and men to do. There is great freedom of the unique person he has made each of us and the gifts we have that he is just waiting to use if we seek Him with a pure heart. This takes away the need for criticism, and manipulation. I have not sorted it all out yet in my head, but It's a start. When you encourage people for their gifts, as they fall under the obedience of God's word, you will stop comparing them to what you think they aught to be. I look forward to walking on in this journey.

And, it was this study of women in the church and home that brought these things to the surface in my life. It was not all fun. Some parts of what happened this last week were very hard, and very frustrating. We are all quick to be offended but not quick to see how WE may have offended. I look forward to God showing me "how" to do carry out things peaceably. I look forward to being more content with the man God made MY husband to be. I look forward to Him showing me how he made me, and me only, to be his perfect help. I look forward to getting back into that circle of blessing I keep telling my kids to hop back into.

Can Women Be Pastors, Elders or Apostles? Part II: 1 Timothy 2 Is For the Church and Family

Thank you for those of you who shared in the last post. Wonderful, thought provoking stuff. I love having my brain stretched and joyfully challenged when it comes to the Word and it's Truth. I love to be reminded to be patient (and I need it, let me tell ya) and loving (thank you Julie!) and I love the absolute simplicity of faith from Tricia who said:

"I am not a scholar and do not claim to know everything about the Bible. I know a few important facts the Bible is the truth, it is God's Word, and it does not contradict itself. Since the Bible does not contract itself, Paul would not be saying in one place that men are the leaders (elders and teachers) of a church and then in another place say that a woman was a teacher (an apostle). This is a contraction. Junia would have to be male. Maybe, my thinking is to simple."

WOW! That was just so profound to me!!!! Yikes, it was like the lights went on in the realm of my faith and dimmed in the room of intellect. Both are important but it all comes down to having Faith to take God at his Word and believe that He will not let His Word contradict itself!! Excellent! Praise Him for using you Trish! It reminded me too that God meant for things to be clear and simple. We are the ones who start chopping and jumbling until what was so straight forward a child could see it, to scrounging though with our human brains to find what we think it "really" means when God has all ready told us what it means. It reminds me of what I tell the kids all the time:
"Don't come and keep asking me something until you get the answer you REALLY want." "I have answered you, you know what I have said."
We do the same to God and we somehow think that he will be quiet while we change his Words to mean what we want them to mean. The sad thing for us is that we will miss out on the blessing of taking Him at His word. That is why speaking the Truth is so important for the Glory of God and the joy of all peoples! His ways are best, even if we don't agree with them (thanks for that point Donna!)

So, if God does not contradict Himself. Then all of this issue is resting on one thing, and one thing alone. It does not rest on Junia because this coming point negates the concern to solve that mystery since God would never let His word contradict itself. The issue is whether 1 Timothy 2 is talking to the family ALONE or to the church as well.

1 Timothy 2 says:
1First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8I desire then that in every place the men should pray,lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."



The first paragraph is setting the stage for the process of the testimony of Jesus (the gospel) being proclaimed. This takes place in three places the home, the church, and in public to the unsaved men and women (gentiles at the time) who need to be taught the Word of God.
What we do see:
1) "in every place"- this does not allow the detailed relation to only the home.
2) "men" and "women"
3)"Adam" and "Eve" (referred to not because JUST because they are man and wife, but because they are the beginning of the pattern God set down for roles of manhood and womanhood . Basically, they are the beginning of man and woman. The reference is to point out that God's intent was for this to be the way of blessing from the very beginning, and yes, that means before sin. Sin did not make it so women could not authoritatively preach, God designed those roles from the get go. Sin made us have a rebellion of it and mess it up from what it aught to be. The enemy wanted it messed up, Christ wants us to get back to the way God wants it)
4) "childbearing" (is is common sense that childbearing in its actually physical sense takes place in the home (or at the hospital if you want get picky). This does not mean these passages are referring to the home only, because children are born into the church, and the world for that matter. So, this word along cannot give us the context of where these rules are to take place. Remember too, that "home" is included in the spheres where men women interact. Paul did not intend for us to think that women birth at church. :* I think he knew we would not assume that specific element.

What we don't see:
1) home (though it would be included in the places men and women interact so it is part of the whole, not excluding the whole)
2) family (again, part of the whole sphere of where women and men relate, not excluding the whole)
3) husband (we all know husbands are men, but not every man is your husband, so the admonishment is all inclusive and purposefully non-specific)
4) wife (again, we know wives are women there is no question, yet not all wives are you! The passage intently says women to refer to the women of the family, and the church. Otherwise it would say "wives" as it does in other places in scripture)

Other related passages:
1 Corinthians 14:34-36; 11:2-16.

Again this article address MANY of the questions circulating this topic and I would never bore you with putting them all here. The format is question and answer so you can scroll down and read the question you would like some information on.

In summary:
The limitation is not as huge as we make it out to be. The setting is the home and the church or the place of congregated unbelievers who need to be taught the gospel but include men. The restriction is on authoritative teaching roles (pastor, elder, apostle in it's greatest sense). It is on nothing else. Christ has give women amazing freedoms and opportunities to teach, lead, and minister. A woman whining about not getting to preach is like a man who's angry he can't birth children. It is what God made it to be, and we don't have to like it, we have to obey it if we honor the words of God.
The Old Testament has women leaders and prophets. It is of note that they do not have ongoing ministries as the male leaders and prophets did and their intervention, though profound and from God is brief and in desperate times. This is not an argument against them however.
The role closest to pastor and elder in the OT is the priest. There are no women priest.

The importance of 1 Timothy 2 's application is massive. We must recognize the admonishment to the church and not just specifically the home. Again, we have to look at what it says, and what it does not say. Adam and Eve were man and woman before they were husband and wife. The problem is when we look at what the Word says and say, "this is what it means specifically" when the adress is not specific, it is general. All husbands and wives are men and women, but not all men and women are husbands and wives. That is why the passage is general and inclusive not specific and exclusive.

My conclusion:
The evidence proves that 1 Timothy 2 is speaking to the family and the church. It is referring to all women and all men. So, if God does not want women being authoritative teachers, then they should not be. Since he does not contradict himself, if Junia was a woman apostle, she was not an authoritative teacher of the scriptures to men. Otherwise, Junia is a short version of Junius and he was a male.
Simple, and straightforward. Just like most things God wants us to know.

There will only be one more part to this this weekend. In everything that comes my way, especially the things that shake me up and get me seeking Truth, I want to ask God one thing "What do you want ME to learn from this." Boy has he been showing me! One thing about this blog is that you get to see me rise and fall. Sometimes that scares me, especially because I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve in my writing. These writings are from a sinful woman. These reactions are from a sinful woman. So, you will find many faults here. Yet, if I was trying to hide that, I would not be doing God the justice of showing His glory in my life. Where I am weak, He is strong. Where I fail, He forgives. What I screw up, He uses for His glory. So, I have to be welcoming some mud on my face in order to show how He can shine despite it.
I have learned a lot from this study. God has stirred up some things in my personal life that he used this dive into womanhood and manhood to show me. He showed me the importance of studying to give an answer. I took a class that I loved in highschool (from Donna actually) in critical thinking. We learned how to debate and how to dissect faulty logic. It was one of the best classes I've every taken. There is no better place to put it to practice than in the defence of the Word of God. The lesson I learned was to keep it to my own blog. I always think everyone is as eager to stir the pot and find what's true as I am. That was conceited of me I think . So, from now on, I will be free to bring up my topics, but I will do it here. And you can come if you want to, and leave if you want to. But if you stay, I hope you always see Veritas. Challenge me if you don't.

Tomorrow I am off to second grade again! This weekend there will be a part three, and next week I am taking a break from blogging. Besides, if it were me, I would be way behind on all this reading and probably too intimidated by it's length to start!

Can Women Be Pastors, Elders, or Apostles? Part 1: The Apostle Junia

Okay, time to dive in. I'd like to take one point at a time on this issue of pastors, elders, and apostles.
I want to make clear first that my husband and I are huge supporters of Sarah Palin and believe that it is completely appropriate for women to hold public office.
Second, I want to make clear that the specific disallowing argument we have is for women authoritatively teaching men in the home or the church. I want to look at what the bible does say and what it doesn't say. I want to be honest and not avoid when there is something left to debate.

So...
In the argument for women allowed in authoritative leadership in the church there is brought up the issue of Junia. I have been researching a great deal and found that this question answer format discussion on Junia had the most fair, biblically founded, and historically researched response.

In Romans 16:7, Paul wrote, “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.” Isn’t Junias a woman? And wasn’t she an apostle? And doesn’t that mean that Paul was willing to acknowledge that a woman held a very authoritative position over men in the early church?


Let’s take these three questions one at a time.
1. Was Junias a woman? We cannot know. The evidence is indecisive. We did a
complete search of all the Greek writings from Homer (b.c. ninth century?) into the fifth century a.d. available now on computer through the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (Pilot CD ROM #C, University of California at Irvine, 1987), which contains 2,889 authors and 8,203 works. We asked the computer for all forms of Iounia- so that we would pick up all the possible cases. (We did not search for the possible first declension masculine genitive Iouniou, which morphologically could come from a masculine Iounias, because there is no way to tell if Iouniou might come from the man’s name Iounios; so that all these genitive forms would be useless in establishing a masculine Iounias.)
The result of our computer search is this: Besides the one instance in Romans 16:7
there were three others.
1. Plutarch (ca. a.d. 50-ca. 120), in his Life of Marcus Brutus, wrote about the tension between Brutus and Cassius, “. . . though they were connected in their families, Cassius having married Junia, the sister of Brutus (Iounia gar adelphe¯ Broutou sunoikei Kassios).”17
2. Epiphanius (a.d. 315-403), the bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, wrote an Index of
Disciples, in which he includes this line: “Iounias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria” (Index disciplulorum, 125.19-20). In Greek, the phrase “of whom” is a masculine relative pronoun (hou) and shows that Epiphanius thought Iounias was a man.
3. John Chrysostom (a.d. 347-407), in preaching on Romans 16:7, said in reference to
Junias, “Oh! how great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted
worthy of the appellation of apostle!”1873
What we may learn from these three uses is that Junias was used as a woman’s name
in the time around the New Testament (Plutarch). The Church Fathers were evidently
divided as to whether Paul was using Junias that way, Epiphanius assuming it is
masculine, Chrysostom assuming it is feminine. Perhaps somewhat more weight may be
given to the statement by Epiphanius, since he appears to know more specific information about Junias (that he became bishop of Apameia), while Chrysostom gives no more information than what he could deduce from Romans 16:7).19
Perhaps more significant than either of these, however, is a Latin quotation from
Origen (died 252 a.d.), in the earliest extant commentary on Romans: He says that Paul refers to “Andronicus and Junias and Herodian, all of whom he calls relatives and fellow captives (Andronicus, et Junias, et Herodion, quos omnes et cognatos suos, et concaptivos appellat)” (Origen’s commentary on Romas, preserved in a Latin translation by Rufinus, c. 345-c.410 a.d., in J. P. Migne, Patrologia Graeca, vol. 14, col. 1289). The name Junias here is a Latin masculine singular nominative, implying-if this ancient translation is reliable-that Origin (who was one of the ancient world’s most proficient scholars) thought Junias was a man. Coupled with the quotation from Epiphanias, this quotation makes the weight of ancient evidence support this view.
Masculine names ending in -as are not unusual even in the New Testament: Andrew
(Andreas, Matthew 10:2), Elijah (Elias, Matthew 11:14), Isaiah (Esaias, John 1:23),
Zacharias (Luke 1:5). A. T. Robertson (Grammar of the Greek New Testament [New
York: Hodder and Stoughton, 1914], pp. 171-173) shows that numerous names ending in
-as are shortened forms for clearly masculine forms. The clearest example in the New
Testament is Silas (Acts 15:22) from Silvanus (1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Peter 5:12).
So there is no way to be dogmatic about what the form of the name signifies. It could
be feminine or it could be masculine. Certainly no one should claim that Junia was a
common woman’s name in the Greek speaking world, since there are only these three
known examples in all of ancient Greek literature. Moreover the fact that Andronicus and Junias, like Prisca and Aquila (16:3), are given as a pair does not demand that they be husband and wife, because in 16:12 two women are greeted as a pair: “Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.” Andronicus and Junias could be addressed as two men, since Tryphena and Tryphosa are addressed as two women.
2. Was Junias an apostle? Possibly so, but this is not certain. Grammatically “of note among the apostles” could mean that the apostles held Andronicus and Junias in high regard. Thus they would not be themselves apostles. But this is unlikely because Paul himself is an apostle and would probably not refer to them in the third person. On the other hand, since Andronicus and Junias were Christians before Paul was, it may be that their longstanding ministry (reaching back before Paul’s) is precisely what Paul might have in mind when he says “of note among the apostles.” They may well have been known among the apostles before Paul was even converted. Here again we cannot be certain.
3. Did Junias have a very authoritative position in the early church? Probably not. The word apostle is used for servants of Christ at different levels of authority in the New Testament. Revelation 21:14 refers to “the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (cf. Matthew19:28; Acts 1:15-26). The twelve had a unique role in bearing witness to the resurrectionof Jesus. Paul counted himself among the privileged group by insisting on having seen and been called by the risen Christ (Galatians 1:1, 12; 1 Corinthians 9:1-2). Very closely related with this unique inner ring were the missionary partners of Paul, Barnabas (Acts14:14) and Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thessalonians 2:6), as well as James, the Lord’s brother (Galatians 1:19) and perhaps others (1 Corinthians 15:7).
Finally, the word apostle is used in a broad sense as “messenger,” for example, of
Epaphroditus in Philippians 2:25, and of several “messengers of the churches” in 2
Corinthians 8:23. Therefore, if Andronicus and Junias were apostles, they were probably 74 among the third group serving in some kind of itinerant ministry. If Junias is a woman,this would seem to put her in the same category with Priscilla, who with her husband seemed to do at least a little travelling with the Apostle Paul (Acts 18:18). The ministry would be significant but not necessarily in the category of an authoritative governor of the churches like Paul (2 Corinthians 10:8; 13:10).
(the above is taken from this article sorry it got chopped up like that)

What are my thoughts?
I agree that there is great lack of surety on this one person in the scripture. So, when there is a lack of clarity in the bible I can go to what is clear.
1) Every single Apostle (other than this one that may or may not be a woman) are men. I find that a strong statement.
2) Plenty of men in history have feminine gender names
Let's look at the name Junia:
Feminine gender of Lunius, derived from Roman goddess Juno
Origin and meaning of the name from the word "Junius" An original form of Junia is the Latin "Junius". The Roman name Junius could be from the Roman goddess Juno. The name Junia was borne by an early Christian mentioned by Paul in his Epistle to the Romans, who was described as an important person, the gender of the person is not clear. (reference here)
Note that the original for of Junia is the masculine "Junius".
3) Not a valid point in the proof this is a man, but still notable is the fact that men can have names given to them that are of the feminine gender. As the above article also states. We all know that girls are also given boy gender names as well.
4) It does not fit the biblical pattern, that being, that men are to be the leaders when it comes to authoritative leadership in the home and the church. If the only fray in the fabric of this pattern is possibly not a fray at all, then we should stick with the patterns strength.

My conclusion on women apostles: To come up with a theology you need to look at what is clear and not what is unclear. It is clear to me that every Apostle is a man. It is not clear that one is a woman. The weight is on the side of the allowance for men. I admit that the unclear allows for a possible hole (and even the fact that there is this hole is uncertain) in the structure of the argument. So, I go again to where there is clarity. That is in 1 Timothy 2. That is where it is supported. That is where I will be going next with this topic. There is no where in scripture where the uncertain issue of women apostles is supported. No where. If I'm wrong, I want to be shown.
This is how I draw my conclusion.

On a final side note: where are the women standing up for this issue? I am reading many women chatting about it and all the women in disagreement are biting their tongues. Now is not the time for timidity. It is probably a virtue that you are quiet but there is no need to be quiet when the Word of God is being stretched into another belief system. This is not about who has the better argument, this is about loving God with our minds by digging, finding, and then defending. Where are the women who will stand up for biblical womanhood and defend it?

What Does Paul Mean In 1 Timothy 2?

It seems to me that the allowance of women teaching men is resting heavy on the proper understanding of 1 Timothy 2. I am on a mission to study this and find it's meaning.

Though I am about to paste the excerpt text of what is said on this by John Piper, I can say from listening to the whole sermon here, that there is a great deal more definition in that.

I will be leaving this blog up all week with a follow up blog coming from the actual sermon notes for those of you who don't get to listen. You are missing a lot without it.

I welcome comments and discussion.

For those of you not interested in all this reading and discussion, I apologize. The correct handle of the Word of God is one of my deepest passions and one I struggle with being polite on when it comes to it being misrepresented. I scare myself with the intensity of it. I'm sure Jesus seemed very disagreeable when he raged through the temple. Sometimes I feel that bubble in me. I'm praying though that God would be glorified by the way I handle this topic. I want His word to be heard for what it says.

I love how clear and understandable John Piper is in his teaching and his mastery of the common sense of scripture.

"Manhood, Womanhood, and the Freedom to Minister" by John Piper

1 Timothy 2:8-15
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
What we saw last week from Ephesians 5:32 was that marriage is a mystery. God gave it a meaning at the beginning of creation that was not fully revealed for a long time. But now it's made plain in the New Testament. And the mystery is this: marriage is an image or picture of Christ's relationship to his bride the church. A husband and a wife are meant by God to be living images of Christ and the church in relationship to each other.
Before Sin Ever Entered into the World
So when God created man and woman, he made us the way we are—with the differences of manhood and womanhood—so that we would be suited for these complementary roles (and for the other expressions of complementarity outside marriage). In this drama man was meant to play the role of Christ, and the woman was meant to play the role of his bride the church.
And we have stressed for five weeks now that these differences are not the result of sin. Sin didn't create manhood and womanhood. God did. And sin did not bring diversified, complementary roles into existence. God did. Before sin ever entered the world, God ordained and fitted Adam to be a loving, caring, strong leader for his wife Eve. And before sin entered the world, God ordained and fitted Eve to be a partner who supports and honors that leadership and helps carry it through. Both in the image of God. Both equal in their God-like personhood. But also different in their manhood and womanhood. The pattern was beautiful. They respected each other and served each other and complemented each other and enjoyed each other.
What Sin Ruined and Christ Recovered
What sin did was ruin this harmony. Sin made men abandon servant-leadership and become passive or harsh and insensitive and uncaring, or some other distortion of biblical headship. And sin distorted the woman's support and honor into manipulation or defiance or helplessness or some other distortion of true biblical submission.
So what Paul did in Ephesians 5 (as we saw last week) is call for a recovery of God's original idea. He doesn't abolish what God created at the beginning. He wants to get back to it: true biblical headship and true biblical submission. Here's the way we defined these two realities from our study last week:
Headship is the divine calling of a husband to take primary responsibility for Christ-like servant leadership, protection, and provision in the home.
Submission is the divine calling of a wife to honor and affirm her husband's leadership and help carry it through according to her gifts.
When a husband leads like Christ and a wife responds like the bride of Christ, there is a harmony and mutuality that is more beautiful and more satisfying and more fruitful than any pattern of marriage created by man. God loves his people and he loves his glory. And therefore when we follow his idea of marriage, we are most satisfied and he is most glorified.
The Real Test of Whether We've Grasped This
Now the real test I think of whether we have grasped the biblical essence of manhood and womanhood and affirm it as true and beautiful—the real test is whether Paul's application of it to the life of the church surprises and offends us or not. If the New Testament roles for man and woman in marriage are rooted not in sinful pride and not in cultural expectations, but in God's original design for creation, then how would you expect this original design to express itself in the life of the church? That's what we have before us today in 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
Let's seat ourselves before these unpopular verses and listen for a few minutes, and see if the story they tell is really as unattractive as so many think it is.
Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
I think what we need to do in order to understand the submissiveness in this text is patiently think through the meaning of "silence" ("Let a woman learn in silence") and the meaning of "teaching" ("I do not permit a woman to teach") and the meaning of "authority" ("or to have authority over men"). So let's take these one at time.
1. "Silence"
First, "silence." Verse 11: "Let a woman learn in silence." Notice that the word "silence" is used two other times in nearby verses.
The word for silence here (hesuchia) is used earlier in verse 2 of this chapter (hesuchion). But there it refers to the "quiet" life which all godly people should lead. "Pray . . . that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." This gives you the tone and the extent of the word. It doesn't refer to absolute silence: a "quiet" and peaceable life is not a life of total silence. It's a life untroubled and serene and content. So the silence doesn't seem to be total. It's more like what we would call "quietness."
You can see this especially at the end of verse 12. The same word is used again. But this time you can tell what Paul has in mind by its opposite. He says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over men, [literally:] but to be silent." "Not to have authority over men, but to be silent." In other words this quietness is the opposite of exercising authority over men. "Don't exercise authority over men, instead be silent."
So what sort of quietness does Paul have in mind? It's the kind of quietness that respects and honors the leadership of the men God has called to oversee the church. Verse 11 says that the quietness is "in all submissiveness," and verse 12 says the quietness is the opposite of "authority over men," and so the point is not whether a woman says nothing, but whether she is submissive and whether she supports the authority of the men God has called to oversee the church. Quietness means not speaking in a way that compromises that authority.
We'll come back in a minute and be more specific about just what this submission is.
2. "Teaching"
The second thing we need to look at is the reference to teaching in verse 12. How extensive is Paul's prohibition when he says, "I permit no woman to teach"?
To answer this, one thing we can do is look at other places where Paul and others talk about women teaching. For example in Titus 2:3 he says that the older women are to teach the younger women (at the end of the verse): "they are to teach what is good, and so train the younger women to love their husbands and children."
Another example is 2 Timothy 3:14 where Paul tells Timothy to remember from whom he learned the Scriptures. And the persons he has in mind (we can tell from 2 Timothy 1:5) are Eunice and Lois, Timothy's mother and grandmother. (His father was not a believer or even a Jew, Acts 16:3.)
One other example is Priscilla. It says in Acts 18:26, "When Priscilla and Aquila heard Apollos, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately."
So, it's not likely that Paul is saying in 1 Timothy 2:12 that every kind of teaching is forbidden to women. There are examples of them teaching younger women, teaching children, and in some way teaming up with their husbands to give private instruction when someone is confused or uninformed like Apollos. Those are just some examples. Is it possible to generalize, then, about what Paul does have in mind here when he says, "I do not permit a woman to teach"? I think the safest thing to do is let the next phrase guide us. The next phrase is, " . . . or exercise authority over men." "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over men."
Instead of letting the word "teach" mean anything we want it to mean or think it might mean, it's safer to say, it probably means a kind of teaching that somehow relates to authority. Teach and exercise authority go together. So at least one general thing we can say about women teaching is that Paul forbids it when it is part of the exercise of authority over men.
That leads us to the third question, namely, what is this "authority" referred to in verse 12?
3. "Authority"
The key that unlocks this door is a very interesting observation. When you read the rest of 1 Timothy about the role of elders in the church, what you find is that the elders had two basic responsibilities: they were to govern and they were to teach. You can see this in the qualifications of 3:1-7, but the easiest place to see it is in 5:17, "Let the elders who rule [or govern] well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching."
Elders rule or govern, and elders teach or preach. Back in Acts 20:28, you may recall, the elders in the church at Ephesus were called by the Holy Spirit and made "overseers" and charged with "pasturing" or feeding the flock, that is, teaching the whole counsel of God.
I don't think it's coincidental that what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:12 is that he does not permit a woman to teach and exercise authority over men. He is saying in essence: I do not permit women to fill the office of elder in the church. The elders are charged with the leadership and instruction of the church. That's a summary of their job. So when Paul puts those two things together and says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority," the most natural sense is, "I do not permit a woman to assume the office of elder in the church."
So the authority Paul has in mind in 1 Timothy 2:12 is the authority of elders. And what is that supposed to look like? Well we saw already from Jesus in Luke 22:26 what it's supposed to look like: "Let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves." Paul said in 2 Corinthians 10:8 and 13:10 that God gave him authority in the church not for tearing down or destroying but for building up. And Peter said to the elders of the churches (1 Peter 5:3), "Do not domineer over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock."
In other words, elder-authority is servant-authority. Elder-leadership is servant-leadership. That's why teaching is at the heart of this calling. Elder-authority leads by persuasion—by teaching—not by coercion or political maneuvering. Elder-authority is always subordinate to biblical texts. It can always be called to account by Scripture. Therefore teaching is the primary instrument of leadership in the church.
Defining Authority and Submission
I think it would be helpful to step back here and try to do for the concepts of authority and submission in the church what we did for the concepts of headship and submission in the home, namely, give a crisp definition of each.
"Authority" refers to the divine calling of spiritual, gifted men to take primary responsibility as elders for Christ-like servant-leadership and teaching in the church.
"Submission" refers to the divine calling of the rest of the church, both men and women, to honor and affirm the leadership of the elders and to be equipped by it for the hundreds and hundreds of various ministries available to men and women in the service of Christ.
And that last point is very important. For men and women who have a heart to minister—to save souls and heal broken lives and resist evil and meet needs—there are fields of opportunity that are simply endless. God intends for the entire church to be mobilized in ministry, male and female. Nobody is to be at home watching soaps and reruns while the world burns. And God intends to equip and mobilize the saints through a company of spiritual men who take primary responsibility for leadership and teaching in the church.
Closing Appeal
There are many voices today who claim to know a better way to equip and mobilize the men and women of the church for ministry. But I commend to you this morning with all my heart the plain meaning of these verses:
That manhood and womanhood mesh better in ministry when men take primary responsibility for leadership and teaching in the church.
That manhood and womanhood are better preserved and better nurtured and more fulfilled and more fruitful in this church order than in any other.
I commend this to you for your belief and for your behavior, because
this is the way the Scriptures teach us to order the church,
and God inspired the Scriptures,
and God is good.
My hope next Sunday, in the last of this series, is to pick up verses 13 and 14, and then paint the big picture of what it means to be man and woman in all of life.


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Piper On Women in Church Leadership and Apostles

I know, I know, I just can't stop.
This is great, but listen here to hear his whole talk.
Also, you can go here to learn more about 1 Timothy 2 and it's importance.


Should women become pastors?
The Bible draws a connection between the home and the church. Just as there is a role distinction at home—where the husband is called to lead the family—there is also one at church.
At home men are proving their fitness to be elders (pastors), and at church they are the ones who are given that role. Paul says explicitly, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12). And those two functions—teaching and exercising authority—are the functions of the elder.
It's not a problem for a woman to minister in hundreds of ways in the church, but the office of leadership and teaching of men is preserved for spiritual and godly men.
Why didn't Jesus choose women as some of his apostles?
The Twelve are all men. That was intentional, because they are all given incredible authority to found the church. They are like pastors, only they have more authority than pastors.
But Jesus did call women, and he called them into significant ministry. Read the beginning of Luke 8 or see the role of women at the Resurrection. Jesus broke significant taboos in the way that he elevated the role of women. It was counter-cultural to have Mary sitting at his feet learning like a rabbinic student at the feet of his teacher. And it was counter-cultural for him to have women so closely attending him, providing for his needs, and for him to be so merciful to the women of the street.
Jesus was pro-woman to the max. But he did not choose women to be apostles. That wasn't because he was enslaved to his times. It was because, in coherence with the rest of the Bible (Genesis 1-2, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 11, and 1 Timothy 2), he believed that it would be healthy for the church and the family if men assumed the role of Christ-like, humble, caring, servant-leaders, and if the women came in alongside with their respective gifts to help carry his leadership through according to those gifts.
So I sympathize with any confusion on this matter, and I pray that the Lord would give you light to see that it's really not very complicated: God has ordained that in the home and in the church men assume a special role of responsible leadership and teaching.